Need your opinion, Sims...

I'm finally updating the scouting data in [color=cyan24e91218e1][u24e91218e1][i24e91218e1]Efficient Ancient-Age Scouting[/i24e91218e1][/u24e91218e1][/color24e91218e1] to reflect the nerf to Spanish Scouts and to include Iroquois Scouts.
Scouting [i24e91218e1]Effectiveness[/i24e91218e1] (2 X Speed X LOS) poses no problem but Scouting [i24e91218e1]Efficiency[/i24e91218e1] (Effectiveness / Cost) does. Specifically, Iroquois get a free Takoh (lol sounds like a Taco Bell Special) with each rax.
To remain consistent with my treatment for other Scouts, that would mean that the 2nd Iroquois Scout (i.e. the addition to the Scouting team) is free and hence has an [i24e91218e1]undefined[/i24e91218e1] efficiency. This would place them at the top of the efficiency table but otherwise incomparable to other scouting units in terms of efficiency - a bit irritating.
This brings up the thorny question of just how far back to go in determining the "cost" of adding a unit to the scouting team My philosophy had been to just include the unit creation cost at the rax with the idea that the cost of the rax should not be included because it is a "required" building (e.g. needed for raid/rush defence or, at least, eventually must be built).
On the other hand, it might be interesting to determine the "cost" of adding an ancient age unit to the scouting team based on its total [i24e91218e1]minimum[/i24e91218e1] resource cost (i.e. mili1+rax+base unit cost, not to mention the cost of creating a builder, or at least the lost resource gathering of one villager during the build). Advantages that Romans, Indians, and a few others get would affect this.
What are your thoughts on this, Sims? (or anyone else, of course ) )

lol thats nice thing, but i dunno ^^ i'm noob, few weeks ago i just found out that market gives +10 wealth and that scouter kill spy P

hehe - we all had to learn those at one time. Myself, I learned the latter the hard way oops .

When you play Iroq, you almost always get the 2nd scout anyway. So you can just measure the scouting efficiency as twice the scouting effectiveness of one iroq scout, divided by the cost of the 2 scouts (which is free). Of course you are right, there must be some fudge factors cuz the 2nd scout comes out 50 seconds later, and you had to pay mil1/rax early on for that "free" scout. Not sure what to value that fudge factor as either.

Anyway, you don't need to define the efficiency of the 2nd iroq scout, cuz it always comes together with the 1st iroq scout (99% of the time anyway). I.e. your overall scouting efficiency is determined by those 2 scouts anyway, so you might as well determine it in terms of those 2 scouts. (Same for Spanish 2nd scout--that too is really "free" so how would you define its efficiency?)

Alternatively, you could just exclude it from the table, since you don't include the free Spanish scout either.

Hmmm. Interesting thought on the Spanish Scouting effectiveness. I was actually trying to document the effectiveness and efficiency of [i006a580dad]adding[/i006a580dad] a first new unit to your "scouting" party. With that in mind, I suppose I should treat the Iro data as if for a third scout, like i currently do for Spanish.
For fudge factor, what do u think about determining ALL the "cost" as (Mili1 cost)+(rax cost)+(1 builder's lost resource-gathering)+(unit creation cost)? This might put into perspective some of the various nation bonuses which coordinate well with early scouting spams.

Simsy is the ron maths man. point

neeeeeeeeeeerds =O

probly im just too stupid ;(

That might work, since all nations need sci-mil-rax to build those units anyway (except for villies of course). I suspect villies won't look as inefficient if you compute it that way. Iroq and Aztec probably will come up pretty high cuz of their free units.

I'm with you Killahertz

He can count effectivness of hits as I kick his ass P

Damn he must suck really badly then P

[quote5dca0cde17="TWC_Jups"]Simsy is the ron maths man. point[/quote5dca0cde17]
It's too variable to be expressed with math, really. The efficiency of building a rax and getting a free scout early is entirely dependant on when and how you use that rax. If your opponent launches an early HI rush, then the rax will have undoubtedly been to your benefit. If the rax was built early and remains unused for a long period of time, then you sacrificed economic power for an unneeded rax and it was most likely not worth the benefit you got from the free scout. So it's essentially a conditional trade-off based on many unpredictable factors.

Actually I find an early rax is almost always worthwhile on non-water maps. Even if you're not iro (thus no free scout) using 2 LI to gather ruins, find rare locations, and scout your opponent typically pays off. You can usually force him to build an early rax as well if you send an HI straight at your opponent and use it to kill civilians, stop buildings from being built, etc. If he does build the early rax he usually has to build 1 FA (costing him wealth he'd use later for raiding/uni/etc.) and you probably get more ruins (b/c you can use the LI to scout while the HI raids).

very nice article, i got a nice idea for a calculation model based on opportunity costs (yes im studying maths&economy ) ) and a chance to find a ruin combined with your scouting efficiency data.

no posting though, i feel nerd enough already O_o

post it u nerd!

Bah, post it. This is liek complete nerd thread already.

[quotefef9738937="knobi"]very nice article, i got a nice idea for a calculation model based on opportunity costs (yes im studying maths&economy ) ) and a chance to find a ruin combined with your scouting efficiency data.

no posting though, i feel nerd enough already O_o[/quotefef9738937]

Hehe...You better hurry 'cause I'm in the middle of a major rewrite of the Article which might just be doing what u r thinking of. Does it involve Cost/(effectivenessXincome per ruinXruin density)[/colorfef9738937]? Contact me, knobi, and we can collaborate. Or, if u like, I'll scale my rewrite back to it's original form and I'll help you host your article in our Table of Contents. Seriously, contact me.

I am so amused D

It's probably the pretty colors, Rambo - methinks it doesn't take much to amuse you P

I see the point. I'm still amused.

Actually did small article on feasibilty of villager scouts over 10 games average. They're worth it but you must waypoint - auto q is USELESS other than finding your cap rare and even then Soooo slow.

So yeah, you nerds, I'm a nerd too.

Show me tables and graphs lolol.

u goobers!

Quote "methinks it doesn't take much to amuse you". True, but remember when placing smilies to make everything ok that you are dealing with a complete bastard ;)

You're right. Small things amuse small minds. I've got this rec of you scouting. Like hadn't even entered enemy territory at all at 4 minutes and then you got rushed and lost cap. Meantime I double your ruins (but I am dutch and using merchants as well)

All this theory is horseshit. Spend more time learning to actually scout instead of talking about and doing sums on it.

[quote04c43e0df7="AU_Rambozo"] True, but remember when placing smilies to make everything ok that you are dealing with a complete bastard ;)
[/quote04c43e0df7]
Actually it was a tongue, not a smiley.

[quote04c43e0df7="Au_Rambozo"]I've got this rec of you scouting. Like hadn't even entered enemy territory at all at 4 minutes and then you got rushed and lost cap. Meantime I double your ruins (but I am dutch and using merchants as well) [/quote04c43e0df7]
oops Having never played a Rambozo on GS, all I can say is, stop smurfing in my Noob games. Anyway, Sims has a better recorded game where I spend 5 minutes with a scout trying to pick up a ruin that's between a forest and a mountain. Turns out it couldn't be reached by anybody.

Lolol pwnd ^^

Noob games. How am I to know you a noob when you been round so long and you write good only please on your hosting.

I know now...

hehe, im just thinking about it. my way to understand the game i guess. dont write articles like u do, i do it old style with pen and paper and then i hope my opening improves ;)

and of course id share my ideas of the kinda model i had in mind with u if u want )

I play the game by feel and improve by feedback. wink

I just play... You'll eventually get to know what works best =/

why would i play 20 games to see whether villi scouting is worth it or not if a simple model can tell me that it is worth it in 2 min O_o

Because it's already been done for you. The simple model tells you nothing of how to scout, playing the game does.

It makes you practice it very well =)
I fully agree with rambozo on this one for a difference ;)

I dunno what all those calculations show but what I do see people do is getting one or two citizens to scout the map for ruins.

WTF? i h8 math, but i must know em, rofl