Boards » T&P Strategy

question about ruin manipulation

KIWI_Rootfifth

01-06-2005 20:23:08

this has happened to to me alot lately, and it really pisses me off,
what determins what resources u get from ruins???? its, what ever u have the lowest of , right? there have been times when a ruin will give me gold, even if my food is at like say 23, my wood is at 80, and my gold already being at 100 (when i see "+50" flash before my eyes, when i already have fucking 100 gold, i wanna throw my comp out the window) in one game it happend to me 3 times in row, que villies looked up at my resources chart saw that food was cleary the lowest, picked up ruin,but still got a wood or worst, a gay gold ruin.......sims, bird, i ask here couse i know u guys know the game inside and out, is it a gay bug? or are there other factors that determin what resources u will get from ruins?

AU_tl

01-06-2005 21:04:52

You get the lowest of whatever resource you have. I think there's a bit of a delay though cause sometimes I get wealth even though I just queued enough villies to drop food to a low # though.

Rambozo

01-06-2005 23:05:51

Yeah don't think I've ever seen that happen in sandbox but online it does - lag?

AU_sims

02-06-2005 00:28:16

that happens to me too sometimes /

Rambozo

02-06-2005 02:48:18

It is God mocking you.

Beertender

02-06-2005 05:11:20

It's just the lag... But usually when its at 20 to 50 you'll get the food instead of the gold... With 40-50 i wouldn't take my chances though =/

Diveloperz

08-06-2005 12:38:41

What makes you think it adds to the lowest reource? As far as I know it is random. In RoN the host's server stores all player resource data which is later passed down to the other players, [i4f4d5c28f0]and[/i4f4d5c28f0] it decides what resources any player gains from collecting a ruin, so I don't see how there could be any lag. Only player input is processed on a user level; the rest is done by the host.

Rambozo

08-06-2005 14:53:43

"As far as I know it is random"

Well, fuck off and learn something before posting shit in here then.

AU_sims

08-06-2005 19:43:39

Maybe try playing the game before spouting off your latest theory?

That's the second time (in two posts I've read of yours) where you spout off about how RoN does things internally, when in fact you clearly have no knowledge of how it works. Hint Just because you took some programming classes, or are a CS major, doesn't mean you can instantly deduce the internal structure of a complex program like RoN.

Diveloperz

08-06-2005 19:47:52

I don't doubt your experience, but I don't know how you've all arrived at such a conclusion. If there was lag involved, then it would be nearly impossible to judge whether the game was trying to add to the lowest resource or not.

AU_sims

08-06-2005 20:48:33

That's our point--go play the game, and you will see that it (almost 100% of the time) adds to the LOWEST resource. That's why you see experts queueing up 5 villies and then cancelling them after getting the ruin--so they can get food ruins. Now, this doesn't happen 100% of the time, it happens maybe 95% of the time. The random bugs that could cause that 5% error rate are myriad. There's no way you could figure it out if you don't have the source code in front of you. People are just suggesting one theory.

One thing's for sure--it sure as hell isn't random, because if something acts deterministically 95% of the time, that does not consititute a random distribution. What people are getting on you for is that you somehow think it's random--well, we're telling you, play the game and try it out before you say you think it must be that way.

Diveloperz

08-06-2005 21:54:01

I thought I remembered from a BHG article that the type of resources gained from ruins was randomized, but I guess I was wrong. I don't know what factors are involved, but I do know that a lag between server and client isn't involved.

KIWI_KiLLaHerTz

08-06-2005 23:09:02

[quotefc983b2390="Diveloperz"]I thought I remembered from a BHG article that the type of resources gained from ruins was randomized, but I guess I was wrong. I don't know what factors are involved, but I do know that a lag between server and client isn't involved.[/quotefc983b2390]

as sure as you knew 2 posts ago that what resource ruins give was also completely randomly?

Beertender

09-06-2005 07:16:33

Pwned!

Diveloperz

09-06-2005 10:10:01

[quote261ac87e3c="AU_sims"]Maybe try playing the game before spouting off your latest theory?

That's the second time (in two posts I've read of yours) where you spout off about how RoN does things internally, when in fact you clearly have no knowledge of how it works. Hint Just because you took some programming classes, or are a CS major, doesn't mean you can instantly deduce the internal structure of a complex program like RoN.[/quote261ac87e3c]
Since RoN must keep constantly updated on all player resources (for replays, achievements, etc.), it must either be constantly sending the data to all players (UDP multicast) or it must either be constantly sending input to the server which is then passed down the the rest of the players. Since in RoN the server keeps track of what users are and aren't inputting correctly, it must be the latter.

How do I know that the resources gained from a ruin is determined by the server? It's just general programming standards. If two players run into the same ruin at around the same time and there was a lag between the two programs, then both players would get the ruins.

Militant

09-06-2005 10:32:34

Is this the Jerry Springer show? Put your handbags down ladies! rasp

What do you get when you cross Michael Jackson with Arnold Schwarzanegger? -- Michael Wozza-nigga. 8)

Now, lets see what responses I get... probably some political correct saddo lecturing me on 'racism'.

What's happened to freedom of speech these days?

Anyway, ciao!

AU_tl

09-06-2005 11:43:13

[quote8c5915bc88]Since in RoN the server keeps track of what users are and aren't inputting correctly, it must be the latter. [/quote8c5915bc88]
Do you mean ron uses a machine for multiplayer other than the two clients playing (in a 1v1)? How did you come by this information if yes? My guess has always been that ron uses a peer to peer model with the hosting client acting as the controller for decisions such as this. I'll bet they use UDP with a forced sync (thus the reason you get OOS's on rare occasion). You don't need gayspy to play afterall so what machine would act as the "server" when you connect direct ip?

[quote8c5915bc88]How do I know that the resources gained from a ruin is determined by the server? It's just general programming standards.[/quote8c5915bc88]
Well, to put my true dweebishness right out there- I've been programming professionally for more than 14 years and this has never been a general programming standard as far as I know lol. Using a peer to peer model, there are definitely ways to determine things like who got a ruin- the hoster just needs to require receipt of the unit movement UDP packets before it makes the decision on who gets the ruin. So the server probably sits in a very short wait loop expecting the appropriate packets it needs to make a specific decision, receives them, makes the decision, sends the update packets to the clients, etc, etc.... Having said all this, now I'm curious... perhaps I need to find someone who does multiplayer RTS programming & ask so we really know ).

Rambozo

09-06-2005 13:18:15

Freedom of speech militant.?

That would imply you have something to say.

i doubt it.

Diveloperz

09-06-2005 13:54:21

[quoted260658d47]Do you mean ron uses a machine for multiplayer other than the two clients playing (in a 1v1)? How did you come by this information if yes? My guess has always been that ron uses a peer to peer model with the hosting client acting as the controller for decisions such as this. I'll bet they use UDP with a forced sync (thus the reason you get OOS's on rare occasion). You don't need gayspy to play afterall so what machine would act as the "server" when you connect direct ip?[/quoted260658d47]
I guess I didn't explain it very well. When I refer to the [id260658d47]RoN server[/id260658d47], I'm talking about the user who is hosting the game. You're right that RoN uses peer-to-peer connection and that it uses UDP.

[quoted260658d47]Well, to put my true dweebishness right out there- I've been programming professionally for more than 14 years and this has never been a general programming standard as far as I know Laughing. Using a peer to peer model, there are definitely ways to determine things like who got a ruin- the hoster just needs to require receipt of the unit movement UDP packets before it makes the decision on who gets the ruin. So the server probably sits in a very short wait loop expecting the appropriate packets it needs to make a specific decision, receives them, makes the decision, sends the update packets to the clients, etc, etc.... Having said all this, now I'm curious... perhaps I need to find someone who does multiplayer RTS programming & ask so we really know Smile.[/quoted260658d47]
Again, I must have explained it badly. When two users inform the server that they are picking up a ruin and the server decides who gets it, why would the user decide what type of resource the player receives? This would only add an unneeded line of communication, because the player who got the ruin would then have to tell the server what type of ruin it got, while the server could just decide this itself and include this info in the package for telling the user that they picked up the ruin.

I don't do any programming professionally, but I do it as a hobby.

KIWI_Rootfifth

09-06-2005 14:01:24

wtf! stop spamming my one serius topic in this site!

Diveloperz

09-06-2005 14:11:03

Oops. shock

AU_tl

09-06-2005 14:47:38

I'm sorry Rooty... cyber?

AU_sims

09-06-2005 18:34:53

Er? The user says, "I'm picking up a ruin, my lowest resource is food." The server says, "Okay, here you have it." The difference between saying "I'm getting a ruin" and "I'm getting a food ruin" is one whole byte, if that. If you already have the things communicating when you get a ruin, it's trivial to also send what kind of ruin you need.

I am confused as to why you even need the server to know what type of ruin you need anyway, you just need something to keep all the ruins between all the players in sync, and the client himself can figure out what kind of ruin he needs locally (and then update his resources accordingly, syncing it with the rest of the players the same way it syncs all other resources changes).

Diveloperz

09-06-2005 20:48:02

[quote13970c9cf4]Er? The user says, "I'm picking up a ruin, my lowest resource is food." The server says, "Okay, here you have it." The difference between saying "I'm getting a ruin" and "I'm getting a food ruin" is one whole byte, if that. If you already have the things communicating when you get a ruin, it's trivial to also send what kind of ruin you need.[/quote13970c9cf4]
Yes, but, I'm saying that the server decides who gets a ruin based on the updated positioning of players' units. I could be wrong about this, but in just about every massive multiplayer game project I've been involved in, this sort of thing is always handled on a server level. On a user level, a game normally only sends player input, i.e. the waypoint(s) assigned for a specified unit or group of units. There are a number of reasons for this. One is hacking. If RoN sent messages on the client side that were interpreted as "I get 100 food from the ruin," an experienced programmer could monitor the network to see how the message is formatted and on what port, then write a program that constantly sends clones of that message and constantly gives him food. Another reason is keeping players in sync. When resources are handled on a server level and a user doesn't send his input to the server, what do you do? Very simple keep adding resources to his treasury as if he were doing nothing. If resources are handled on a user level, the game would hickup every time a message was lost. I know RoN does get OOS now and then, but there are other reasons for such errors, such as trying to move a unit that does not exist in the server's unit database.

Then again, you never know with programmers from BHG.... ?

</rambling>

If you read all that you must have way too much free time. lol

TWC_Jups

09-06-2005 23:41:58

ah quit digging

Rambozo

10-06-2005 21:39:47

"but in just about every massive multiplayer game project I've been involved in"

You are completely full of shit. Please fuck off and find another pet project you know fuck all about RoN or for that matter how to tell decent lies.

Diveloperz

10-06-2005 22:32:34

Do you doubt that I do multiplayer programming? Do I need to prove it to you? Show you the source code? I can, but it's nothing special. I'm not the only programmer here; there's TL and there are probably more. Just about everyone who programs sooner or later does some online programming. Being involved in a multiplayer game project isn't a huge deal. You can find about a zillion of such projects on SourceForge.net . Most of them don't get past the engine development stage, but they're there.

If you really don't believe me, I can show you some source code or what not... but it's really nothing special.

Beertender

11-06-2005 06:47:18

Okay, if all of your theory is correct then you can probably explain to me why i nearly allways get a ruin of the recource which is lowest?

Diveloperz

11-06-2005 09:18:57

Look back at my posts. I never said that you wouldn't get the lowest resource.

Militant

11-06-2005 10:06:45

Sorry about my joke the other day, maybe it was inappropriate for a forum.

I have just finished my exams though, and I have next week off college. If you didn't know, I'm 17.

About this subject, when I get ruins they always add to the stockpile of my lowest resource. But why throw your handbags at each other over this?

About ruins, is sending a civilian to scout the corners of the map really a good idea? Even if there is a ruin there - Somebody else may have beaten you to it.

TWC_Jups

11-06-2005 11:24:11

yes

Beertender

11-06-2005 11:28:52

It's a good idea yeah, just think of it, 1 villager gathers 10 food on a farm in 30 seconds, in about the same time if it picks up only 1 ruin it has 5 doubled its use =)

AU_sims

12-06-2005 10:23:20

Well it's more important than that, since there are only a finite amount of ruins on the map and your opponent will likely get it if you don't. So by getting that +50 ruin you are also denying your opponent that ruin, so you have a net gain of 100 over your opponent.

KBS_Gladiator

15-06-2005 10:06:48

Getting back on topic a bit...

[quote44e12df356="AU_tl"]You get the lowest of whatever resource you have. I think there's a bit of a delay though cause sometimes I get wealth even though I just queued enough villies to drop food to a low # though.[/quote44e12df356]

I have noticed (even in the sandbox) that if they are close (say 47 F, 50 W) you often get the wealth. No doubt it has to do with internal updating of resource stockpiles vs interface display of stockpiles. Cant imagine that there is some weird randomization based on a threshold difference between the minimum and the next smallest - that would be too CPU intensive.

REV_Viriato_pt

16-06-2005 02:16:01

[quotee5bd2388ce="Beertender"]It's a good idea yeah, just think of it, 1 villager gathers 10 food on a farm in 30 seconds, in about the same time if it picks up only 1 ruin it has 5 doubled its use =)[/quotee5bd2388ce]
if the 10food in 30s is right why not send let's say 3/4citezens scout always? we need 150s(2m30s) to get 50food in a farm and with that time one citezen can catch 2/3ruins or more

TWC_Jups

16-06-2005 05:53:26

On some maps (amazon for example) yes 3/4 vils is perfectly fine to scout with in ancient.

Beertender

16-06-2005 07:03:07

Problem is that you still need econ and the nr of ruins stop at a certain point =/

REV_Viriato_pt

16-06-2005 07:18:25

yes it's true but the citezens taht we send it's not lost reshources, we can use them, in our 2nd city to full woodcamp or a farm

Beertender

16-06-2005 07:27:42

Takes time before they get there since you usually send them to a corner =/

Rambozo

16-06-2005 12:50:13

let em all do it with six citizens beer. I like the idea of targets everywhere.

Wanna learn two minute horse archers kekee.

Beertender

16-06-2005 13:17:07

=P Yeah he's right... All just scout with every villager you have! Specially when your vs spain or an ancient raid civ so his sci 2 will be useless!!! 58 Such an evil plan!

REV_Viriato_pt

16-06-2005 17:05:43

shock

KIWI_KiLLaHerTz

17-06-2005 09:40:28

[quote7b196a0c76="Beertender"]=P Yeah he's right... All just scout with every villager you have! Specially when your vs spain or an ancient raid civ so his sci 2 will be useless!!! 58 Such an evil plan![/quote7b196a0c76]

USE AUTO SCOUT THOUGH!!!!11!

AU_sims

17-06-2005 12:34:20

Wolf used auto-scout yesterday and got com5 and civ4 in ancient with no sci1...is that noobie?

AU_sims

17-06-2005 12:36:34

[quote03a071daac="REV_Viriato_pt"][quote03a071daac="Beertender"]It's a good idea yeah, just think of it, 1 villager gathers 10 food on a farm in 30 seconds, in about the same time if it picks up only 1 ruin it has 5 doubled its use =)[/quote03a071daac]
if the 10food in 30s is right why not send let's say 3/4citezens scout always? we need 150s(2m30s) to get 50food in a farm and with that time one citezen can catch 2/3ruins or more[/quote03a071daac]

If you're chinese you can do this (1 farm 4 villies scout first ruin is wealth and get sci2 then 5th villie to scout)...I just hope you don't get ancient raided, cuz when I did that vs. Aztec, I kinda got pwned.

REV_Viriato_pt

18-06-2005 20:43:37

[quoteafc6eed703="AU_sims"][quoteafc6eed703="REV_Viriato_pt"][quoteafc6eed703="Beertender"]It's a good idea yeah, just think of it, 1 villager gathers 10 food on a farm in 30 seconds, in about the same time if it picks up only 1 ruin it has 5 doubled its use =)[/quoteafc6eed703]
if the 10food in 30s is right why not send let's say 3/4citezens scout always? we need 150s(2m30s) to get 50food in a farm and with that time one citezen can catch 2/3ruins or more[/quoteafc6eed703]

If you're chinese you can do this (1 farm 4 villies scout first ruin is wealth and get sci2 then 5th villie to scout)...I just hope you don't get ancient raided, cuz when I did that vs. Aztec, I kinda got pwned.[/quoteafc6eed703]
yes...vs agressive nations is more hardest but i'm talking generally in 3v3(map is biger and lot more ruins) in 1v1 i use 1/2scouts citezens most of the time(exept with chinese)

Holli-33970

27-08-2005 01:11:47

Oh, My God!

[ElitE]_RuNe

27-08-2005 06:45:47

Oh, My God! u are posting on an old thread